Journeys to Leadership

[00:00:00] I was checking off all the boxes. Right? I was, I was engaged. I had a car, I was, I got tenure, but there was something missing that passion that I had was being starved because I wasn't doing that thing because I was afraid. Hello, and welcome to Agnes Scott college's podcast journeys to leadership, where we explore the paths of inspiring women leaders from around the globe.
I'm Leocadia Zak president of Agnes Scott, and the host of this podcast. I hope that our guests stories not only encourage you, our listeners and leaders of today and tomorrow, but they also inspire you as you take the next steps in your own.
Today's guest is an American anthropologist writer, associate professor, and is currently [00:01:00] the vice president for diversity equity and inclusion at Centre College, where she was also the commencement speaker this past spring, she served as the president of the association of black anthropologists from 2016 to 2019.
And from 2019 to 2020, she was a fellow in the chief diversity officers program of the national association of diversity officers in higher education. She has taught classes at a number of distinguished institutions, including the university of Southern Mississippi, Emory University Spelman College, and the number one most innovative liberal arts college.
Agnes Scott College. She's the author of God and Blackness: Race, Gender, and Identity in a Middle-class Afrocentric Church" and has done extensive research focusing on racial and gender issues in the south. She has a BA in [00:02:00] sociology and anthropology from Agnes Scott College and a masters in anthropology, a graduate certificate in women's studies and a PhD in anthropology from Emory University.
I am so thrilled to welcome. Today's guests. The very accomplished Dr. Andrea Abrams. Welcome Andrea. It's a delight to have you on the show. Happy to be here. It's really exciting to be here as an alum of Agnes Scott college, talking to the president. Thank you so much. We know that successful leadership doesn't just happen,
it's a journey. During our time today, we hope to explore your journey, the ups, the downs, the surprises, all of it. So let's get started and let's start a little bit at the beginning. You grew up in Mississippi. What was that like? Growing up in Mississippi. Um, you know, surrounded by Confederate flags cause it's, [00:03:00] at that time, it was still on our flag, the symbol, but I'm also going to a black church that is teaching us about our history that you don't see.
Um, a lot of times in the history books. I'm with parents that are deeply involved in the church community activism school, uh, the juvenile detention center, soup kitchens. And we didn't know that, uh, we were doing community service. That's just how we spent our Saturdays. And so that, uh, having... those things happen, being immersed in that the ra- the problematic racial dynamics of Mississippi, but also having these parents that were very active in pushing against it.
And then there being the six of us that are growing up in this, um, I think. I know that it has molded all of us. We all are in [00:04:00] professions that in some way deal with issues of equity and access and service. And, um, it's very much was shaped by growing up in Mississippi, in the 1970s and eighties, but also having these parents that were very, um, active and thoughtful about.
Empowerment and resistance you mention, and one of six, I have to ask you, what was your birth or. So I'm the oldest then my sister, Stacy Abrams is second. Uh, Stacy's a politician. Some people might have heard of, um, my sister, Leslie is third. She's a federal judge. My brother Richard is fourth. He is just social work.
My brother Walter was fifth and my sister Janine is the sixth and she has her PhD in evolutionary biology. [00:05:00] Wow. What a family. Oh my goodness. Your parents must be so proud of all of you. And it also sounds like you're so proud of your parents and they were so instrumental to your development in good decisions that you've made in your, in your siblings have made it.
Yes. I think they, they sent a lot of good examples. One of them was, so when I went to start at college, went to Agnes Scott, my parents packed up as, as I was the oldest, they packed up the other kids and they also moved to Atlanta to go to Candler school of theology. And my mother had been a librarian before my father had, was working on the ship yard.
That was a true leap of faith to just take. Five young kids and once one child in college and just move yourself to start school. Um, and without, without any money in the bank account to do that. And I always think back on that one, [00:06:00] I'm nervous about a new endeavor that they just did, that thing that their heart told them to do.
And it, it was bumpy, but it worked out, um, another way in which I think that. Uh, a good lesson from my parents was always being told to try our best. So we were all a group of my siblings and I we're all nerds. We've all done well in school. Um, and so it was expected that we would make good grades that we would go to college.
But there, there are times that I know I wasn't always the best student. I really struggled with math. And my father was very consistent with me that. If I did my best, that was as good as an a plus. And as long as I could look him in the eye and say this C or this deep was my best, he was as proud of that as any a and so from that, I [00:07:00] learned that success is about the, your effort and your integrity and not always about the accolades.
And so I think those two lessons have really shaped me. Well, they sound like absolutely wonderful people. I'm so happy that they took that leap because we had you here at Agnes Scott. And as you were reflecting, it reminded me of something in your recent commencement remarks, you gave a fabulous commencement speech last spring that our students are just absolutely thrilled about and have really enjoyed.
And. In that speech and those remarks, you mentioned about the fact when you were younger and in college about you would have described yourself as wanting to be a writer versus being a writer, which you clearly are. Now. Can you tell us a little more about that, about that evolution? What is it that you, how you saw yourself [00:08:00] when you were in college and then how did you transform?
What was that journey that. So before college, I know that's who I saw myself as, as a writer. That's the first dream I ever had for myself was to be a writer. And then I went to college and I took a writing class there. And. It scared me, um, cause it was not the class, but the, it was around all these other really talented writers and I was being pushed and challenged in a way that I hadn't before.
And, and I think the, the bigness of what this can mean, kind of overwhelmed me for a moment and. Backed off. And I, and I made up all kinds of stuff. Well, you can't make a living at that and you'll just teach English. And, um, and it was really me once I took that first real [00:09:00] step to being a writer, I was scared.
And so I backed away and. I kept saying I was a writer for the longest time that I wanted to write, but I wasn't actually writing. And then I reached a point in my life where I was checking off all the boxes. Right. I was, I was engaged. I had a car, I was, I got tenure, but there was something missing that passion that I had was being starved because I was.
Doing that thing because I was afraid. And that's when I leaned back into the lesson that I brought up earlier from my father that it's trying, that's the point doing the best you can. And maybe, maybe I'm not actually that good a writer. Maybe I'll never make a living. That's not the point. The point is that I tried the point is that I followed my passion.
And so I was like, you know [00:10:00] what, we're not going to live another year without at least giving this a try, what ever happens. And so I did, I put off, I took that leap of faith and am still leaping, but it feels good. And I think back on that class at Agnes Scott, um, and really wish that. I could go back and talk to her and like, stick with it, you know, this, this is what you need.
And I have thought sometimes where would I be if I had, if I had known that then, but then I think, you know, I took the long way around, but that's informed who I am as a writer too. And you know, sometimes we, we take the path. Need, and it's not always the most straightforward one and that's okay. Speaking of paths, uh, you are a black woman and anthropology, you must have [00:11:00] faced challenges in that field.
Could you tell us a little more about that? So when I was learning about anthropology and particularly learning about anthropology of black and brown people, what you have in this discipline for too long has been. White anthropologists, studying black and brown people. And particularly the scholarship at that time around African-Americans focused on being poor and issues around the problems of masculinity and black culture being this one thing that is either dysfunctional or exotic and.
I really want it to correct the record because I knew it was much more complicated than that. And, um, but there's also this expectation that you go study the other and I wanted to study my own community. And so that was a time [00:12:00] when I really just had to decide to. Be different on that one and decide that that sense of blackness was important.
And if I'm going to be in anthropology, I've got to own that part of myself. And I have to be part of that conversation, whether it's expected or not. It seems in the activities that you've described, there's always been a sense of getting to a point of courage, um, of deciding to be yourself. How does that come about?
Where did that come from? I think it comes from the examples that my parents set. I think it comes. From the examples of particularly women in my life [00:13:00] who, because of sexism and patriarchy, and especially the ways in which that can at times intersect with class and with race and seeing these examples of women who have step forth into spaces where they weren't invited.
And have struggled to hear, to have their voices heard, to even find out what their voices are. That has been my example of, there is no excuse because I've seen people with fewer resources than myself step forward. Um, and I was also raised with a sense of obligation. To those who come after me. And, you know, that was one of the things that going back to being a young black woman in Mississippi, I was often in spaces where I was the only one [00:14:00] are the first one.
And this sense of you have to try and you have to do well so that you can. Clear some of the brush for those people who are coming behind you, so you can set the example. So at times my courage, wasn't always, for me, in fact, I think the times when I lean into being courageous in order to accomplish something that I want, I can find lots of excuses, but when I have, and I think about what does it mean if I try, what does it mean if I succeed for someone else?
Because there aren't often people who look like me in these spaces. That's when I'm not even sure you call it courage. I just do what I have to do because it, this is bigger than. You sound like a true Scotty. Um, as you described that, the fact that you think about what you're doing for someone else, um, in the process, [00:15:00] what was your experience like at Agnes Scott?
How did it affect your journey? And is there something you wish you knew then that, you know, now I know for a fact that going to Agnes Scott is why I'm an anthropologist of gender and race. It's that place where I was a black nerd and there that doesn't fit in the stereotypes that blackness are. And I was struggling to figure out.
My blackness meant, and it was an anthropology class with Martha Reese, um, that I on ethnicity that gave me the language to ask the questions that had been boiling around inside me, that couldn't quite articulate. And that, that just blew my mind right there and, and changed everything for me. And then being at a place with full of women, [00:16:00] um, who.
You're doing things outside the male gaze and just being, and going and accomplishing things and, and taking classes on women's studies that I, I, it just captured my imagination and it. Gave me a sense of purpose that this is, I need to understand this better. I need for other people to experience what I'm experiencing right now to have this, the opportunity to intellectually engaged with what it means to, to be in a gendered and raced body, to have the experience of just being around women folk and the power and purpose that comes from that experience.
Yeah. Very defining moment. As you can imagine I'm a strong advocate for women's colleges. Um, but I am so thrilled to have someone else [00:17:00] embrace the word nerd, um, which I've often applied to myself. So thank you so much for that. Um, you also, in your recent commencement remarks, you mentioned a concept of eliminate.
And how one should lean into it. What do you mean by that? For our listeners who haven't had the opportunity to listen to that, to those remarks? What, what is that? What do you mean? So liminality is an anthropological term that refers to the transition between rites of passage. So when between being a child and an adult, uh, between that space, when you are.
Engaged to someone and when you're actually married. So you're no longer one thing, but you're not quite the other. And it's often in those spaces that a lot of fear comes up because there's there's, there is a lack of stability. You don't know exactly what's going to come next. You don't know. Um, [00:18:00] you don't know.
And at times we get stuck in the fear and the uncertainty. But this is also a time that's pregnant with possibility. There are so many different ways in which the next phase of your life could go. And so instead of being consumed with the fear of what might not happen or what might happen, really leaning into the possibility.
Of what could happen and the ways in which the things that have happened to you before are preparing you for this moment and that, that we should lean into those doors that are opening for us, that we can't even see yet. Um, and I know that for me, when I think of that, when I think of the future as. Uh, present [00:19:00] a gift that, that, that I haven't unwrapped yet instead of, uh, this, this empty space that I can just fall into it, it's much more reassuring to me.
You've described many things about yourself, about your journey. I'm curious, what's surprised you about yourself. Well, to be honest, Newest position that I'm in as I'm the vice president for diversity equity and inclusion. I'm a, I'm an introvert, I'm a quiet person. One of the reasons riding appealed to me as you do it by yourself and being put in this position, choosing to be in this position of leadership.
When it was offered to me, I was reluctant. I was, I was very happy as a faculty member and. I was reluctant to do this, but I did it. And first , [00:20:00] I mean, that is such a wonderful honor and I'm sure you're fantastic. Uh, well, I, I was surprised me. I was good at it. Um, and it was kind of thrilling to have influence in, in these ways.
And I've been tested and I've had to stretch myself in ways that. I haven't ever had to do before, and it's been scary, but it's also been thrilling and, and there are opportunities that are coming up that I had no idea that were possibilities. And so I've, I go back and forth between being, oh my gosh.
And, oh my gosh. You know, and, and yeah, it's a good place right now. You answered a little bit, but as you look forward, what excites you. Honestly when I don't know, you know, like what is next? I didn't see this coming. [00:21:00] What is around that next corner? And in what way will I be challenged? In what way will I grow?
Who will I meet? Where will I be? I've I've gotten to a place where those questions no longer scare me, but they challenge me. And, um, that's, that's what I'm looking for. That is wonderful. It's been such a pleasure having you on our show. Are there any other words of encouragement or advice that you would have for our listeners have faith in your.
You got this far and there's all these other spaces of potential within. And if you just give yourself the opportunity, there's so much more wonder for you and within you and, and just have faith. It will be all right, Andrew. Thank you so much for your time to our listeners. You have been encouraged, inspired [00:22:00] as I have been.
Andrea Abram's journey is one of many that we've been waiting to share with you. Thank you for joining us. I also want to thank our producer, Sidney Perry for making this podcast post. I'm Leo, Katie Zack. And this is journeys to leadership, looking for more content, check out, leading everywhere. The Agnes Scott college podcast, a show that shares the stories of the campus, community, students, faculty, staff, and alumni, available on apple podcasts and Spotify.